Creating grade on flat table

[chimmike]

My 4x8 table is completed, but I plan on doing a few elevation changes (1 for each of the two mains), and I'm curious what I should use as a base material? One will be climbing a hill/mountain, the other goes into a tunnel of said mountain and increases elevation for the exit side which shortly thereafter will be a trestle over a creek.

I'm thinking of just buying some thin MDF or plywood, wetting it (not while on the MDF of course), and layering appropriately as a base, for which cork roadbed will overlay, and then of course the scenery adjustments to cover it up.

thanks in advance

 

[SpaceMouse]

I think you are going about it the wrong way. You want mountains on one side, but you really don't want the grade on the other. So on the mountain side the table is just lower the table depending on how you want the side to look.

 

[chimmike]

well, I've already got the table built, it's flat...I don't have the option of doing benchwork, per se.

the mountain is only going to be a corner of the end of the 4x8 (and since that plan I'm going with is for a table smaller in length than what I have, I can factor in some extra room for the grade/mountain on ascent and descent ends of the track)

you know, I just read on another thread about using 2" and 4" styrofoam for elevation changes/creeks, etc.

I'll pick up some of that and be able to make more creeks/elevation changes to have more fun with the layout.

 

[SpaceMouse]

IT would be worth your time to alter the table, you'll lose a lot if you don't. I know it's easy to say what's done is done, but things get compounded very quickly. Your grade will probably impact your arrival/departure tracks in your yard. What would be easy at this point is to raise the yard side. Even if it means another piece of plywood.

Besides it will be a lot less work than building your grade.

My mistake like that, I had $200 worth of turnouts I decided really wouldn't work right for my layout. Since I spent the money, I decided to build anyway. After two years of fighting them, I ripped up the layout and started over. The layout looked good, but I had major work every time a turnout failed.

Anyway, here is how I build grades. 1/2" ply with 3/4 risers cut to size. Remember you need a transition grade, a gradual change at the top and bottom so add an extra couple feet to your grade plan.

 

[grande man]

Since your table is already built, you could use a 4" base of foam (4x8 sheets at Home Depot, 2 required). This would allow you to cut the rivers, ravines and such into the foam and maintain a constant track elevation while giving the look of rough topography. Woodland Scenics risers could be used with the base foam if needed to gain further elevation. It's tough to climb any distance and get back down on a 4x8 table (assuming you're in HO scale).

 

[chimmike]

I'm N-scale, thats where I think the advantage lies for me right now.

I'm going to do a 2" foam base all around, with 4" on the end 2' of the table I'll be doing the mountain on. Then I can cut out accordingly and make the grade smooth and transitional on either side (as it'll be downgrade on the curve around towards the yard side. Again, I don't think an actual 2" increase over the level surface will be required as an elevation change, so it may simply increase in elevation 1"-1.5" to allow the inside main to cross under the outer and into a tunnel. I think on the inner main I'll cut out a 'viaduct' to simulate a cut through granite and into the tunnel just after the outside main crosses over.

I know it's hard to visualize what I'm explaining, but once I get the foam down it'll be easier to understand, along with when I can start laying some flex track to show what i've got planned.

 

[UP2CSX]

While Chip is right, using foam is your second best solution. The only thing I'd suggest is to work out the grade mathematically so you know the exact run you'll need for whatever rise you finally decide on. If it's over 3%, you're going to hate it. 2% may mean a helper on longer trains and 1% grade usually means you can crank the throttle to get 'er over the hill. Grades, within reason, can add a lot to the operting and scenic potential of a layout as long as you realize that steep grades will be a constant headache unless you're using Shay's and running a logging railroad.

 

[chimmike]

being that N is 1/160 scale, which is .00625, I'm dumb about calculations, but figuring on a 1:1 scale, a 2% grade would require 500' to increase 10' in elevation, no? So I figure 1500' for a 30' vertical increase.

then 1500*.00625 = 9.375

So if my lousy calculations are correct, for a 30 scale foot increase vertically it'll requre 9.375 actual feet of n-scale trackage? that seems a bit long for n-scale.....tell me my calculations are bad? heh.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I started with a flat plywood base, same as you. I'm using 2" white foam (the only kind I can get) and WS inclines to creat grades. I put 2" ov foam over the entire plywood so I can "cut" below the base elevation. I'm modeling HO, but the concept is the same. Here's a pic.
Doc.

 

[SpaceMouse]

1" at 1% would take 8 ft 4"
2" at 2% would take 8 ft 4"

Remember to add the transition grade.

Your calculations are correct, but you need the transition added to that so figure 10 ft.

 

[chimmike]

wow, about 10' of track distance, so I guess I'll be starting the grade on the opposite side about midway through the curve. Hmm....could make for a good valley design then

I wonder.......Hmm. It's going to take some experimentation I think, heh.

I wonder if I can work in a helix loop there......hmmmm

 

[grande man]

wow, about 10' of track distance, so I guess I'll be starting the grade on the opposite side about midway through the curve. Hmm....could make for a good valley design then

I wonder.......Hmm. It's going to take some experimentation I think, heh.

I wonder if I can work in a helix loop there......hmmmm

I'd go steeper to be able to start the grade on straight track.

 

[chimmike]

I'd go steeper to be able to start the grade on straight track.

I was thinking that too. It's going to be the "big train" mainline....I'll be trying to run dual power on it, a pair of GE dashes or if I can get my hands on one, the DD40AX model. Either way, I want dual power for both the local main and the 'heavy' main.

the heavy main is the grade line. And I'm curious as to how I'll bring it back down to level on the industry side. I think I'll have to elevate the industry side a little bit, or just start the grade down right after the crest at the beginning of the curve.

 

[SpaceMouse]

Or you could go back to the idea of rasing the yard two inches. A single piece of foam does the trick. If you have a grade on the main in front of the yard, you will not be able to pull into the A/D track. And if you can, you will forever be working over your grade to work the yard. This is a mistake I make on my last layout.

But keep trying to work it out. Just don't build any more until you do. My feeling is a plan should be about 95% worked out before you build anything.

 

[chimmike]

oh yeah, nothing has been built yet except for the table. I've got some styrofoam that I can lay out.

Good point on raising the yard side. I can downgrade just enough to get into the yard, and really, I can go up a grade on the opposite side into a tunnel without going overly high....probably 3/4" above foam level....and then just keep the yard side that height as well.....and do a downgrade turn on the far side opposite the mountain, just so I have some elevation change. That should work!

I guess I'm trying to cram just too much into the layout. I can have my elevation changes, but not as drastic as I had hoped. My outside main can go into a tunnel and my inside main can go alongside the mountain, both can go up the same grade without being overly steep.

 

[SpaceMouse]

I think you may be missing the point of the backdrop. What you have is two layouts. On one side you have a railfan layout that you can watch trains go over your bridge. On the other you have a switching layout. That is why I have been so insistent that you can raise the yard side. Because as it goes through the tunnel it come out on a mountain landscape complete with bridge and what ever, only to pass out into another tunnel and back to the yard.

The mountain side can also serve as staging for the yard side. You send a train out one direction and bring back one on the other. You can go through 4 trains without duplication and switch in and out of the industries at the same time, making for a couple hour session. That session need not be the same each time as the make-ups will change as you bring them in and out of the industries.

 

[chimmike]

Makes sense now. I was just really unsure about doing a backdrop but the way you explained it makes perfect sense.

Should aid a lot in construction of the table too

 

[UP2CSX]

That's why I wanted you towrk through the math on grades. They always take way more space than you'd think just eyeballing it. I think raising the yard really is the answer to keeping the grade reasonable although I haven't seen a layout plan so I can't totally visualize what you're trying to do. Have you sat down and done a detailed plan yet? If not, that should be next on your agenda. Once you get a plan done, post a copy here so we can have a look. It will help us all make more informed comments.

 

[SpaceMouse]

Hes' using a stretched version of this plan.

 

[chimmike]

the layout I'm doing was pasted in the other thread I made in this section.

.75" (which I would make as my actual elevation change) is 10 scale feet. Which would be 500 scale feet at a 2% grade......which equates to 3.125 track feet I would need for the elevation change. This means I can make the 'exit' portion of the yard side drop down to the railfan side still allowing for a slight elevation change. I could even decrease the vertical change from there. I'd just like to have an elevation change for the track.

You can also see, on the railfan side, the single siding, that inside main will be slightly separate from the outside main and the siding will probably go off to an old mine....still be functional, but have a much more gradual grade and less total elevation change than the outside main.

I can play with the math a little bit, but I'm pretty sure I can pull off a 3/4" elevation change with the raised yard side. I just think nothing's cooler than watching a long train work up a grade (and then playing around in a yard with a switcher. Guess I'll have to get another throttle control for the wife when I get the zephyr and the track all set up)