Atlas HO Trainman Headlights

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D

DougC

Member
I need your advice on another issue (it’s not a real problem per se.)

This year I purchased 7 new Atlas HO Trainman engines (with the DCC boards) – 4 GP38-2 and 3 RS36. With one exception these run smooth and quiet, draw little power, and the GP38-2s are fine pullers. I use these engines in pairs to run 55- to 60-car trains at very slow speeds, and use MRC Tech II power packs (had them for 15 years) on pulse power - they all do just fine.

The issue: At these slow speeds the headlights don’t come on. Heck, even Bachmann engines’ headlights come on, and they’re directional too. So I sent an email to Altas customer service and asked them about this – how can I turn these headlights on? Their response was – run you trains faster or use DCC.

This response was unsatisfactory - I don’t plan to ever use DCC. And run my trains faster? :eek:

I’m guessing most of you are experienced with these DCC board things. If I take the board out and straight-wire the power to the motor and headlights, will that work? If so will both headlights come on together (unless I just wire one headlight)? I’m also guessing the DCC board does the directional work, and if it was removed no more directional lighting. Or can a person use just the headlight directional part of the board? If so where is it? Or is that particular part of the board the problem for no lights at slow speeds? Do you have any thoughts or experience with this?

Thank you for any input.

DougC
 
unsatisfactory?? They didn't lie to you... What they told you is pretty much how it is. Unless the engine has LED headlights, they won't be on full bright unless they get more power (faster speed) or you go DCC. LED's are bright pretty much the whole time from my experience.
 
First of all, it depends on whether the headlights are bulbs or LEDs. If they are bulbs, then they will be dim until you run the loco faster. If they are LEDs, then they won't light up until they get to a certain voltage, but will stay lit when it reaches that voltage. If you wire the LEDs straight to the motor, then you will blow them out in a fraction of a second.

Instead of ranting about the manufacturer providing an "unsatisfactory" answer, why don't you educate yourself on the product?
 


I only run DC & every engine I have has LED's for front & rear lights. All of mine are directional. Some I use 5mm front & back & some I use 3mm in back & always try to use 5mm in front. All of mine are 20% bright white. Last year I ordered 100 w/resistors wired in from China for $14.00 w/free shipping. The last time I looked on Ebay they were $24.00 & $7.00 shipping, which was about 3 months ago. These are rated at 12V. & usually get pretty bright at the 1st turn of the throttle handle.
I looked for almost a year at LED's before I finally decided to try them out. I blew out a few before I learned the tricks. I now have resisitors from 560 to 750 ohms & learn more everytime I mess w/them. I have about 2000 strands of fibreoptics that I have been experimenting w/lately. I saw where Mark has been using them in Ditchlites & I had started that about 3 months ago. Still haven't figured out how to get the light from the front headlite to the fibreoptic strands w/out breaking them. That's next. LOL
 
Larry, do you know what the maximum voltage is on the layout at full throttle? 12V seems a bit low to me and it would seem that it would shorten the life span of the LED. (I run DCC, constant track voltage is 14V)
 
diburning said:
Larry, do you know what the maximum voltage is on the layout at full throttle? 12V seems a bit low to me and it would seem that it would shorten the life span of the LED. (I run DCC, constant track voltage is 14V)
Click to expand...

The highest track voltage on my layout averages about 11 volts. I never run my trains wide open at any time. I ran a Roco bullet train once for about 3 mins at full throttle to see if my curves would keep it on the tracks & that voltage was at 14 & that engine had reg. bulb headlites. I figure if the LED's don't last it's because the resistor is to low. These I have are 560 ohm.
These China LED's are well put together & I have enough LED's to last a lifetime & then some. I have about 1500 in diff. colors. I also have about 300 resistors.
 
That's the downside to DC. If theres not enough voltage, it will not light. If theres too much voltage, then it won't last as long. With DCC, it's full constant track voltage which is user-adjustable (people usually put it on 12 or 14 volts) which makes picking a resistor easier.
 
diburning said:
That's the downside to DC. If theres not enough voltage, it will not light. If theres too much voltage, then it won't last as long. With DCC, it's full constant track voltage which is user-adjustable (people usually put it on 12 or 14 volts) which makes picking a resistor easier.
Click to expand...

At half throttle the bulbs are pretty bright. Lot better than the original bulb.
I figure they will outlast me & then my nephews & their kids can worry about lights. On 1 of my custom engines I have body mounted 3mm leds for ditch lites & a 5mm headlite & then a 3mm lite for the rear, all directional.(just reversing the wires to the back.)
Well, anyway, hope they last & if they don't I'll add a capacitor next time or that's what my electronic buddies told me to do at the start. :eek:
 
Dougc
You will have to check at what track voltage you are running your trains. Leds usually don't light until you get 2.5v or 3.5 v power. If your engines have bulbs you will have to replace them with Leds and resistors. When you do this you can check and see what voltage you are getting from the board or wire them direct to the power coming into the board. If you don't have a meter yet, Get or borrow one.
Not hard to install leds if you can solder.

Bob
 
Well, the downside to bulbs is that they don't last as long and are not as bright, but the downside to LEDs is that they generally don't light until you give it at least 3 volts.
 


diburning said:
Well, the downside to bulbs is that they don't last as long and are not as bright, but the downside to LEDs is that they generally don't light until you give it at least 3 volts.
Click to expand...

OK, as soon as I get my trains running again I'll check the voltage to see what it is when the lights get bright. I have volt & amp meters on both of my throttles.
 
Gentlemen:

Thank you all for your comments. I'm taking it all in and chewing on it.

Based on your input, at this point it seems to me that what is happening is that as the model RR industry continues to advance one of those ways is DCC. And Atlas (and other mfgrs?) see this and not only meet the changes but try to stay ahead of them (certainly can't fault them for this.) In doing so Atas' engines are built for DCC but can still handle DC okay. And in the case of their engines' headlights when running on DC higher voltage (hence speed) is needed to activate the headlights and when running on DCC you just program it in and touch the "headlights on" button.

If this is the case, and if I want normal headlights (at least with Atlas Trainman engines) then I need to "pull a Larry" and learn how to and then actually build my own headlight system. Or else I imagine some model RR mfgrs. sell LED and/or incandescent headlight systems pre-made. I can check thru google. Does this sound like a pretty good summary?

Thanks again for the education.

Doug
 
I suggest you investigate some simple circuits on the internet - perhaps try 'constant train lighting'. If you want to get "constant lighting" you DON'T wire either LEDs OR Bulbs directly to the motor/track - you need to put in some SIMPLE electronics between the power feed and the light source - we're talking diode/resister/transistor level electronics, not integrated circuits!

Ross McConchie
Canberra, Australia
 
Willis:
Ross:

Ross - thanks for your help - I just figured that out yesterday from some other other responses, and was checking a web site out last night (sent them an email with some questions.)

Also, Willis' post right above yours has a neat site with simple do-it-yourself info and part numbers - thanks Willis.

I imagine if I can use 1.5 volt LEDs and wire them up with Radio Shack parts (one per bulb maybe) then I'm probably good to go (constant lighting.) I plan to be in town today so I'll stop by Radio Shack and ask them. I'm guessing that the Atlas Trainman LEDs/bulbs need about 2.5 to 3 volts to turn on. If so the 1.5 volt LEDs will probably turn on at my slow speeds.

Doug
 
Doug, (good name BTW)

This is a fairly detailed long-winded post, so bear with me.

I too run DC, desire bright headlights at idle and low speed (aka constant lighting), and own an Atlas’ RS36 and GP38-2 (in addition to Classic Series, Silver Series, and Master Series). You suspect correctly, the issue is with the circuit boards (they’re not really DCC boards) and the bulbs. No, you cannot modify the boards very easily and maintain directional lighting. You should replace them.

To put it simply, for optimum DC lighting in your Atlas Trainmans, and any China produced Atlas locomotive for that matter, you’ll need to make them comparable to the very well performing Atlas Classic RS-11 and C424/5 LED equipped production runs, which are the best performing DC constant lighting circuits Atlas has produced, IMO. You’ll need:

1. Golden White LED’s (my RS36 has a bluish LED and my GP has a regular dim bulb). You can get LED’s at any LHS.
2. The proper circuit board. The one you want is Atlas part #850120, about $4-$6 each.
3. Resistors soldered into the two holes on the board that are near the motor leads if they are not there already (I used 2 1000 ohm resistors because that’s what I had in my parts bin but you could probably use less resistant varieties)…..AND
4. The proper dummy plug that fits into the dcc socket on the circuit board. About $1 each.

Fortunately, your Trainmans likely have many of these parts installed already. Some may not have the LED’s and the resistors installed in the circuit board, but check for sure. And, if you have a very new run of locomotive, you MAY NOT have the proper dummy plug installed. Unfortunately, finding one these days may be difficult.

Starting with about 2007 production runs of various series of locomotives, Atlas stopped using the older simpler plug, the one that you need (small green plastic piece with minimal circuitry embedded into the plastic) with a useless, larger plug that has black box capacitors and more complicated circuitry embossed on top of the plastic. The newer plug causes a poorer functioning DC constant lighting circuit than the older simpler plug. I don’t think the folks at Atlas realize this (or care, since everybody is going DCC now anyway and the DC constant lighting market is shrinking, according to the pundits). If your locos have this newer dummy plug, that may be the main reason they do not light as brightly as you want them too at slower speeds. You can also check the parts diagram that came with your locomotives to compare, but I don’t think they’ve even changed the drawing. So these diagrams still have the drawing of the old dummy plug, even though the new dummy plug may be installed!

You may be lucky and have the proper dummy plug in your Trainmans already. I do not know if newer run Trainmans come with the simpler plug or the newer, more complicated useless plug. Unfortunately, I don’t know if the Atlas parts department continues to carry the older, simpler dummy plug.

As general information to you, in researching DC locomotive constant lighting performance right out of the box, I have found the best performing Atlas locos are the Atlas Classic RS-11 and C424/5 with the LED’s (about 2005 vintage and newer), since they have the 850120 board. MP15dc’s seem to do well. Other Atlas products are hit and miss since they seem to change the boards every few years. BTW, all older run blue box and grey box Proto 2000’s, due to the way their circuit boards are set up, perform very well too. However, newer Proto’s do not light as well on DC as older runs, likely due to changes in their boards as well.

The electrical modifications you’ll need to do are very easy.. Swapping and popping out the dummy plug is easy. And I’ve gotten to the point now where I just solder the resistors into the 850120 board while its installed in the locomotive (low wattage soldering iron to not melt the plastic board). The only time consuming aspect of the modification is installing a 855120 board into a locomotive that does not already have one, which amounts to unplugging eight little wire harnesses, swapping out the board, then reattaching the wires and harnesses. Easy.

One other thing, if you really want bright LED’s on DC, control your train with the AristoCraft CREST Train Engineer. It’s a hand held wireless throttle that uses your existing power pack as a power source. Google it for research. I have one. My understanding is that the way it sends power through the track, pulses or something, it activates the lighting circuit WAAAY before the motor turns. I mean really, really bright lights, even at idle. It costs about $150. For my situation, a wireless throttle (not infrared) and bright lights were my two highest priorities, so I went with that product rather than a $400 wireless DCC system. Controlling multiple locos at different speeds at the same time is not important to me, so I don’t need DCC. The CREST product has worked so well, I’ve replaced all if the circuit boards in my Atlas locomotives, even the ones with the 4 function decoders, with the 850120 board, proper dummy plug, and resistors. That’s why I know some of these details I’ve told you. The CREST product also boosts the performance of the P2K lighting circuit as well.

More technically and electrically knowledgeable people may have other ways to get the very bright slow speed DC lighting you want, but these steps are the way I’ve done it for all of my China built Atlas locomotives. I know it works. And it’s cheaper than DCC, which you don’t need if you’re content on not operating different locos at different speeds at the same time.

Good luck.
 
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Doug

There is also a company called Circuitron, who has been producing these kind of circuits, at a reasonable price, for Modelers for years. Here is their web site.

http://circuitron.com/

They would be a good alternative if you're not good with soldering.
 
I realized my previous post had a lot of "ifs" in it, so I took apart my two RS-36's and 1 GP38-2 to look at the circuits. My fears are confirmed about the new, larger, more complicated, but useless dummy plug being installed in newer Trainman runs.

It appears that any Atlas Trainman locomotive with the 10000 series numbers has the nonresistor 850120 board combined with the troublesome dummy plug. My RS-36 of this vintage (10/2008 run) has the upgraded factory Golden white LED installed, but it NEVER gets bright under DC operation, even with the AristoCraft Train Engineer operating it, because its operation is impaired by the poor performing newer dummy plug.

On the other hand, my 8000 series (8/2007 run) RS36 has the blue LED's but since it has the resistors in the 850120 board and the proper dummy plug, it is bright at slow speeds (not as bright as a golden white would be)

My 900 series GP38-2 (6/2005 run) also has the proper board and plug but it has dim incandescents that are trying to get bright, but never will.


Conclusion (finally, eh?): If you have a non 10000 series run of the RS36 and GP38-2, all you need to do is replace the bulbs with Golden white LED's and you'll get very nice brightness at slow speeds. You'll want to replace the bulbs anyway, so try this to see if it works good enough for you before you spend money and time trying to find/build an aftermarket circuit.

If you have the new 10000 series locomotives, you'll need to find an older dummy plug (which may not be easy to do) and solder two resistors into the holes in the board. So you may just want to get an aftermarket circuit like others have suggested.
 
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Look, with DC you are running your trains by providing power to the track. There is NO physical way possible to have the headlights on while idling, and not possible to have headlights on if the voltage threshold is not met. Bulbs and LEDs run on electricity and theres no possible way to light them if the electricity is not there!

If you want the headlights on and on bright regardless of the loco on DC, I'd take a 9-volt battery, put on a snap-connector and wire the headlights to a resistor, then to the battery. If you want directional lighting, use two batteries. But this is assuming that you can fit the batteries in the loco shell. If you want to use bulbs, a single AAA battery is enough to run 1.5v bulbs.
 


Doughless and All:

(BTW given the precedent maybe I should change my name to something like Dugenough) :)

I'm still digging further into this matter but have begun to take action - I have purchased a couple of 1.5 V bulbs (not LEDs) and ordered a couple of bridge rectifiers from the local Radio Shack. If this succeeds maybe I can step up and try an LED setup.

For me this is a whole new subject. For about 50 years all my model trains came with lights and they lit up (albeit initially dimly) when I turned the transformer/power pack on - simple, not an issue. It seems sort of crazy to have to be chasing a not-very-simple-to-me "technology monster" just to get the headlights to work on some new locomotives' startups.

Doughless: I will also check my Atlas Trainman model numbers. (I just checked 3 of my 7. I've got 3 RS36s and the receipt shows their numbers are in the 1000s. The other 4 locos are the GP38-2s and I traded for them at the LHS. I just realized I still have their boxes so I checked - the item # on the box is 10 000 021.) Thanks for your detailed explanation; you did a lot of investigative work.

I'm also learning about DCC boards and if I get confident enough I might try removing one and see how things go. For me what I just said almost (but not quite) reminds me of the old saying - What do you do when a young man stands up and yells, "Hey everybody, watch this!"? RUN!

Larry: Received your how-to material. Thank you.

I'm going to print-out this thread info to have on-hand.

DougC (aka Dugenough)
 
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