Adapt Bachmann Vandy Tenders to Run Behind Other Engines


Sound Installation into Vandy Tender, Piggy-back decoder

I am definitely excited about the possibility of mounting the decoder piggy-back onto the top of this speaker housing.
Here is an example of the 'heavy steam tsunami decoder' and base-reflex speaker I wish to utilize in at least one of my Vandy tender experiments.
DSCF3427, ps Tsunami decoder, base reflex speaker.jpg
DSCF3428, ps Tsumani on top base reflex.jpg
DSCF3432, ps.jpg
You can see they are very similar in size. If there is any type of overheating problems with the Tsunami, then some sort of metal plate or screening might be inserted between these two to help dissipate heat away from decoder.
 
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Sound Installation, sound relief holes planned

So I intend to drill (mill) a series of holes down the centerline of that chassis, and as large in diameter as the two exterior frame ribs will allow (between those ribs, so as to maintain the rigidity to the chassis that those ribs provide).
Just penciled in at the moment, but here is an idea of how the larger 'sound relief' holes would appear...

DSCF3433, ps.jpg
DSCF3453, ps.jpg
 
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Dual Dissimilar Speakers

In my second 'Vandy tender experiment', I wanted to do a dual speaker arrangement. And why not consider dual dissimilar speakers?

I had seen this posting quite a while back when I was reading a lot on speaker subjects:
hminky said:
When I introduced the idea of Dual Dissimilar Speakers back in 2006 it fell on deaf ears.

This really works, one speaker is full range say 220-20000Kz and the other has a middle range of about 550-6000Kz which gives a "woofer" sound
[url]http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/221570.aspx[/URL] ...with a video..

...and here [url]http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41127[/URL]

So here is my thought:
DSCF3436, ps.jpg
DSCF3438, ps.jpg
DSCF3439, ps.jpg

That's a small round high-base speaker from Railmasters placed so as to fire forward. It will need an 'enclosure' added to its backside

EDITED: Just discovered that I had placed those 2 speakers in backwards in those photos. The base reflex and piggy backed decoder should be towards the middle of the tender,...and the 'standing' mid-range one should be at the opposite end. Lucky I never went forward with that installation permanently yet,....just mock-up.
 
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Sound out from Front of the Tender

Now why do I want it to fire that smaller round speaker in a forward direction?

Have a look here
As I re-read this PDF document several times I became aware of a possible speaker installation that was not covered in this document....excerpt:

"Separate back wave from front wave: It is important for sound quality that the inside cab area be sealed as much as possible to prevent the back wave from escaping through grills, vents, fans or other openings in the diesel or electric locomotive cab or through the openings in the chassis where the motors connect to the trucks. If there is any leakage of the back-wave to the outside, it will mix with the speaker front-wave and cause destructive inference in some base tones and perhaps constructive interference for some of the higher frequency tones. The respective path lengths for the front-wave and the escaping back-wave and the position of the listener will determine which frequency components are degraded or changed. Usually, since the acoustic chamber and path lengths are short, any back wave escaping from the locomotive causes degradation of the sound. If the back wave is allowed to escape close to the front-wave, the degradation is more severe. As the scale of the model decreases, this becomes more of a problem since the distances between front and back waves become smaller.

Vent the front-wave sound under the locomotive: Propagating sound upward into the open air seems to produce lower quality sound unless you are directly over the speaker. The sound has no opportunity to reflect against different parts of the layout such as buildings, mountains, etc. that add both volume and presence. Our experience is that the best design choice is to propagate the sound under the locomotive. The next best choice is out the sides of the locomotive through vents and grills. If sound is vented under the locomotive, always be aware of the affect of trucks and other obstacles and other factors that can either improve or degrade sound quality. Do not vent sound straight down too close to the track where it can be reflected back and decrease volume and sound quality. Venting the sound directly under the fuel tank usually does not produce good sound in smaller gauges (HO and N) since there is little space between the bottom of the fuel tank where the sound is vented, and the top of the track. Sound usually reflects back from the track resulting in poor volume and presence. Venting through the gear tower and chassis over the open truck areas seems to produce the best sound."


What I find interesting here is no mention of venting the 'front-wave' from the front of the tender, verses out the bottom, or out the coal load?? Why does this interest me? I have at least 4 locos with vandy tenders (C&O) that I wish to install sound into. He covers vandy tenders to some considerable degree, but does not mention this possibility.

I happen to have a friend who has a relatively cheap little IHC steamer that has its sound vented out the front bulkhead of the tender right into the cab area of the loco....the sound is GREAT. On the other hand I have a 2-8-8-2 with the sound vented out the coal load that I consider substandard. So I am giving real serious consideration to experimenting with one of my Spectrum C&O Heavy Mountains with their vandy tenders and venting the sound forward out of the tender.

Just so happens I already have one sound opening in the front of this tender where drawbar goes. I'm thinking I may supply several other sound relief holds in the upper portion of the front of the tender,...perhaps those triangular shaped objects on the coal doors
Relief hole for front sound projection1.jpg
Relief hole for front sound projection2.jpg
 
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Whenever I do sound installations in steam, I make every possible effort to get a speaker in the engine itself - particularly near the front of the boiler. Those little "sugar cube" speakers are ideal for this.

All the sound in a real steam engine comes from the front of an engine, not the tender, and to me, if it doesn't, the whole illusion is ruined.

Fortunately, most of the sound generated by a steam engine is in the mid to high frequencies, so the smaller speakers in the boiler do a very adequate job of this. If you are after pure volume (which I'm not a proponent of anyway) you can always add a bass response speaker in the tender to fill in the lows.

Mark.
 
This idea has surfaced as I attempt to kit bash a Proto2K Heritage 2-8-8-2 loco to look like a C&O H7 loco with the vandy tender option.
View attachment 30647
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I have 2 tenders I would consider using with this loco,...a VC-16 and a VC-12, both of them those very nice ones made by Bachmann. I have already modified one of my VC-16 tenders to mate up with the Proto2K loco;......I carved out a slot in the front of the tender so that it accepts the stock draw-bar of the Proto2K loco.

Here is my basic thought process on the tender and sound situation. I thought I could take one of my Bachmann VC-16 tenders and one of the VC-12 tenders and put the sound decoder and the speakers in each. (I have in mind a dual hi-bass speaker installation in each one). I could then run either of these tenders behind the 'H-7 Proto2K loco, AND behind the various Mountain locos I have ( I have several Bachmann ones and several IHC ones).


But look at what i just found on Youtube....with neat sound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9DdHckE42I

The fellow I had sent my loco off to be kitbashed just held onto it for several years and never did ANYTHING!! I was lucky to get my locos and decoder back from him after finally having to threaten mail fraud.
So now I guess I will have to do it myself, unless some other honest person steps forward.

ex C&O.jpg
C&O H7.jpg

What a monster !!
 
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Are you asking about the O scale one in the video? I just found that video online (youtube). It is not my loco.

I was trying to get this one fellow to modify (kitbash) one of my HO Proto 2000 steam locos into an H7 looking machine. He swore he could do a nice job of it, and I sent along feedwater heaters, flying pumps, sound decoder, etc. He claimed to be able to do the other 'plumbing', ...but he never even started my project. Guess he figured I would forget about the project and just go away. he even ignored my repeated mailing to get my stuff returned, and when he inadvertently signed another persons name to a registered letter I sent to him, he got himself in trouble with the US Postal Service.

Too bad, i was really looking forward to having a 'plastic' H7, since there are none in HO scale,...only brass

Wonder if Broadway ltd, or someone else might consider such a project in lieu of those multiple repeats they keep bringing out of other steamers.
 
Sugar Cube Speaker Endoresment

....from a Soundtraxx forum
[soundtraxx] Re: Speaker sound chamber shape




As I always do on this list, I pay close attention to the proffered wisdom, such as this rich thread on how we choose and install the best speakers for our miniature installations. What is obvious is that the solid acoustical science that lies at bottom of what we wish to do is only a shadow under all the not-so-solid applied art that we must apply to reach our individual sound goals. In this regard, I am keenly interested in the science, but am fairly relaxed in how rigidly that science is applied to get the results that are pleasing to me.

As perhaps mentioned before (I apologize if repeating), I have been on a long program of upgrading operating characteristics and installing sound in a lifetime of my own valued brass locomotives- most finished, and a few fine plastic ones. This has been long enough that I am now contemplating sound replacements in some of my early DSD/DSX installs, and now perhaps even some early Tsunami installs. Here are some relevant speaker choice observations:

1) I have made speaker enclosures out of most everything, and my ears do not discern (or perhaps care about!) significant differences between them. Some of my most successful enclosures have been made from laminated paper (Strathmore/Bristol Board). I seal the paper with whatever paint or lacquer that is handy. The high base speakers have been a standard.

2) I stopped worrying about “how to let the sound out”., after years of worrying about it. The sound seems to find its own way out; and in the tender, the sheet sides seem to transmit (as Mark Gurries has commented).

3) I have never, ever been satisfied with a silent smooth soundless steam locomotive trundling along into view towing a chuffing, tolling, whistling, steaming, clanking, and squeaking TENDER. However, like everyone else, I put up with it because the alternative was no sound at all (some of my most beloved locomotives remained without sound because I simply could not enjoy such sound misdirection as tender speakers engender.

4) The sugar cube speakers (there must be a better name!) have been revolutionary game changers. Great sound (to MY ears) in the smallest of packages.. Although I know never to way never, I no longer use any speakers but the sugar cubes. Any paper cone speaker problem is solved with a sugar cube install- usually in some more appropriate place. I have absolutely stopped any and all tender speaker installs.

5) For several years, I routinely have been installing sugar cubes in the smoke boxes, behind the door and in front of the weight. Some I have done in pairs, others as singles. I prefer the larger singles to paired smaller cubes. Only a few times have I had to remove small amounts of weight to provide room. I spent a lot of sweaty time meticulously opening up the exhaust stack opening to let the sound out. The overall results have been quite good, superior (superior!) to tender sound, but again, creating opening for sound egress, e.g. the exhaust stack, was a useless task that made no discernible difference.

6) In one instance (a large 3-½ lb. C&O H-8 2-6-6-6), the speakers were placed on the forward firebox wall facing to the rear. The sound quality is terrific, but….the sound is also projected noticeably to the rear (begging for a change!).

7) On my most recent, and (to my mind) my most successful installs, I have moved the speakers facing toward the ballast from above the drive line. I have done this on one very large locomotive, and two very small ones, and both I and critical visitors note how clear and “locomotive-centric” the sound is.

I do NOT ever remove any weighting.

Almost all of my sugar cubes are Knowles with 3D enclosures from Streamlined Backshop- which has a remarkably varied enclosure collection. The enclosures are beefy enough to be able to do significant shaping to fit curved areas etc. I have cut some enclosures down for clearance reasons, noting no obvious adverse sound changes. I alter them with styrene or paper. I fasten the speakers to the enclosures with fine beads of flexible Barge cement.

I have a collection of the iPhone4 speakers, but have yet found no opportunity to use them in a place where they will fit.

Among all the things I do not know in all of this is exactly what are the limits of enclosure depth, etc. for the sugar cubes. How shallow can one go? There are places where I would favor one larger cube with a shallow enclosure rather than two smaller cubes on standard enclosures.

The sugar cubes, coupled to small decoders, and 32/36 gauge wiring have together revolutionized sound decoder installations.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA 95864
 
Hope to get back to some of this experimenting in the not to distance future, as I am going for a little tutoring session on DCC installation in a few weeks. I had forgotten about that duel speaker installation I wanted to experiment with.
 
I recently acquired another Allegheny,...this one with a WOW sound decoder installed in it. I just got it out and gave it a little test run today. It has a speaker firing out the bottom of the tender (I think),...the rectangular tender that came with the model. (I have NOT dared to open that tender to see exactly what is inside)

It was very noticeable to me that the sound of this loco was coming from the tender, NOT the engine.

It brought me back to an installation idea I had a number of years ago, the installation of dual speakers in these big tenders,...and with one of those speakers firing forward into the engineer's cab. I definitely want to try such an experiment,...with one of my other Allegheny's,...and likely with a couple of other steam engines I have.

I wonder if ScaleSoundSpeakers has ever experimented with such an idea, OR if he would be interested??
 
Have a look at Scale Sound Systems' Boiler Barker speakers. They are intended for mounting in smokeboxes, which is where most prototype steam locomotive sounds originate.

I put an ESU LokSound5 in one of my H8's, in the firebox. At the moment there is a sugar cube there too, although eventually I'll get around to putting a boiler barker in the smokebox.
CandOfan

Thanks for that reference,...looks like the cat's meow

7e84c8_0cf0f0f263cd4eb99d126b2dbea01618~mv2_d_3000_3000_s_4_2.webp



Obviously he has given a lot of thought to this idea as well.

The Steam-Tweeters are a range of cylindircal micro systems designed to fit in the smallest of spaces.
Suitable for use in smoke-boxes, boilers, cabs or even as an additional speaker in the tender to bring
out more clarity of sound. Some of these systems may even fit well in HO narrow-gage or N scale steam
locomotives.
 
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I recently acquired another Allegheny,...this one with a WOW sound decoder installed in it. I just got it out and gave it a little test run today. It has a speaker firing out the bottom of the tender (I think),...the rectangular tender that came with the model. (I have NOT dared to open that tender to see exactly what is inside)

It was very noticeable to me that the sound of this loco was coming from the tender, NOT the engine.

It brought me back to an installation idea I had a number of years ago, the installation of dual speakers in these big tenders,...and with one of those speakers firing forward into the engineer's cab. I definitely want to try such an experiment,...with one of my other Allegheny's,...and likely with a couple of other steam engines I have.

I wonder if ScaleSoundSpeakers has ever experimented with such an idea, OR if he would be interested??
Sound's like a good idea, send the man an email, the worst he can do is say no, so your no worse off.
 



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