Accuracy in a Locomotive?!!


McLeod

McLeod

Forest Lurker
In no way am I attempting to be negative towards a manufacturer. I'm very new here, and green, and I just don't know.
Here I am trying to plan out my very first HO layout, with a mind to model the 10yr period between 1955-65, and basing the start of the layout on actual CN infrastructure in my home town. I like precision: its some kind of weird illness in me.
Anyway, I went looking for a first locomotive that fit my criteria, and discovered the Athern Genesis GP-9 and the Rapido RS-18, both in Canadian National period green/yellow, and both beautiful. Except that the GP-9 has the large, single Cyclops headlamp (isn't that more GP-7), and the Rapido has a very different side louvre layout than what is apparent in photographs of the real thing. So, neither seems to be accurate to me, more like 'just abouts'.
So my question is this: Is model railroading concerned about real accuracy in trains, or must we put up with a reasonable proximity, in general?
 
Is this what you mean by a "cyclops" headlight?

1728.jpg
 
Rapido is a Canadian model maker and specialises in that country's railroads. Jason Shron, the owner is one such as you. Goes to exceeding lengths to ensure the accuracy of all the models he produces. Athearn Genesis is their top line and also endeavors to produce accurate models for a particular time frame and livery. A couple of years ago they redid the shells of a particular SP loco that was the only one of a road number series that had the brake wheel at the back of the long hood, when the detail error was picked up by customers who wanted that one and offered it as a free exchange for the incorrect one. Things have changed a lot in the hobby.
 
dave1905 said:
Is this what you mean by a "cyclops" headlight?
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Yes, Dave, and I have seen that photo, which I'm thinking is photo of an earlier GP-9. Athern has numbered they're offerings in the 4400 range, which I believe were mostly having a dual lamp configuration. I'm confused as to whether or not this was an upgrade. If it was an upgrade, then when?
I don't see many cyclops GP9's on the CN roster page. Only 1, in fact, in the 4400 range. (4418 in CN blood-nose)

Thank you tootnkumin. At this point, I'm prepared to settle on the idea that the Athern is a correct configuration in 1950's CN colors, with a later time frame number. I know stuff does get renumbered.
 
Welcome to the world of Model Railroading, McLeod! My feelings are that at least you have locomotives available in your chosen RR line! Your preciseness will be helpful to you; but, can also be a curse. Changing grills and head lights is a possibility for you and you may be lucky and find a company that manufactures exactly what you want. Possibly someone here on this forum can help you find what you need, Good Luck!
 
I'd look at BRASS loco models too. For me I, like the OP, I want it as accurate as cheaply posible. I wanted all my articulated engines to pivot like the real ones. I built LOTS of Bowser kits and learned to modify their boilers and mechanics.
 
McLeod said:
and the Rapido has a very different side louvre layout than what is apparent in photographs of the real thing. So, neither seems to be accurate to me, more like 'just abouts'.
So my question is this: Is model railroading concerned about real accuracy in trains, or must we put up with a reasonable proximity, in general?
Click to expand...

Depends on your wallet! As far as Rapido goes, I'd check the iteration of RS-18, and find out which one they did. Grill locations did change over time. For the recent RS-11's they had a number of different shells, and explained where each came from. They typically go to historical societies and other experts for prototype information. Still mistakes can and do happen. No model is "perfect" but they get pretty close. If you get the RS-18, they had a motor issue with those. It is fixable by changing some CV's in the decoder, or they will replace a bad one under warranty. I've bought from them once, and have two more loco sets on pre-order. Link for motor issue is here:
 
I believe brass may well be out of my beginners budget for now, especially since I must purchase most everything else required for a layout. Its certainly something I'll keep a wary eye out for, though, so thanks.

Thankyou for the advice, Espeefan. The heads-up on Rapido RS18 motors is very welcome. It's uplifting that the Rapido crew are on top of this matter, and eager to correct the issue so supportively.
 
McLeod said:
I believe brass may well be out of my beginners budget for now, especially since I must purchase most everything else required for a layout.
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Some older brass is surprisingly affordable. In many cases, it's cheaper than the latest offerings in plastic. You can regularly get decent brass diesels for less than $150 on that auction site. If you're just starting out, though, brass may not be a great idea, since the quality can be all over the map, both in running and appearance. In other words, you'll need to know enough about what you're looking at to know if it's something you could use, rather than a hangar queen.
 
McLeod said:
Yes, Dave, and I have seen that photo, which I'm thinking is photo of an earlier GP-9. Athern has numbered they're offerings in the 4400 range, which I believe were mostly having a dual lamp configuration. I'm confused as to whether or not this was an upgrade. If it was an upgrade, then when?
I don't see many cyclops GP9's on the CN roster page. Only 1, in fact, in the 4400 range. (4418 in CN blood-nose)
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, the unit in that picture, CN 1728 was later renumbered to 4404, which is one of the Athearn versions. Searching online, I've found a picture of #4420 with that same headlight style, and also references to #4411 with it, from articles about converting older models to the correct headlight.

I believe the headlight is a Pyle National, often called a "barrel" headlight.
 
Just an update to this particular thread.
I managed to secure the Athearn Genesis GP9, CN 4418, DCC ready. I chose 4418 because it is the only one of Athearns four offerings that I personally could find photographic evidence as having the 'barrel' headlamps. I'm very happy to have received the locomotive this day, and I believe it is a very accurate representation of the real thing.
New Athearn GP9_ 2-21-2020.jpg
At this time, my joy is not entirely realized. I still have no layout to run her on. None-the-less, I'm well on my way to getting into the game.
 
I never have, but do you think you might be up for kitbashing to get the details, components of locos up to your standards..? You could still build the RR and do the modifications at other times...What about, (is it ?) Details West ? I believe they make a lot of engine add ons/parts.
 
MHinLA said:
do you think you might be up for kitbashing to get the details, components of locos up to your standards..?
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The only thing I can see needs done to this GP9 is to add spark arresters and weather it. I like doing that sort of thing, and have weathering experience from my plastic model and R/C days.
Reading through the forum here, I did notice a link to a place that could supply the proper spark arresters. Can't remember who they were now, but, I'll find them again.
Thanks for your interest.
 
If you already know what needs to be done, then why did you start the thread ? If you like precision then do precision..Why ask? ModelRRing is anything what you want it to be. There's no exact definition of it..
I do though distinguish between toy trains and Model railroads. Some folks call themselves MRRers but are really just collectors, happy with an oval of track (+-) on a 4'x8' slab, if not smaller..
You, sir, are a model railroader. So go ahead and do your brand of MRRing..You need no one's permission on how to go about it... M
 
MHinLA said:
If you already know what needs to be done, then why did you start the thread ? If you like precision then do precision..Why ask?
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Being a complete 'beginner' in model railroading, I thought I would ask a question. This question: Is model railroading concerned about real accuracy in trains, or must we put up with a reasonable proximity, in general?
I asked that question on January 30, before I even owned any type of high end HO locomotive. I asked that question before ever even seeing a high end locomotive. I asked that question because I am a beginner and simply did not know!
Now I know, because I bought a high end locomotive just yesterday. As such, I now know that you can buy a locomotive that is very accurate.

But, thank you for your friendly answer anyway! And know this: As a new member in good standing of this excellent forum, I will ask as many questions as I want to ask. Even if you do want to put them in you're 'why ask?' category.
Have a good day!
 
Without beating a dead horse, let me say that model railroading can be many different things to different folks, For some of us almost absolute authenticity is what we want, keeping in mind that in the smaller scales, we are not going to have actual diesel-electric locomotives or actual coal-burning or oil-burning steam engines. For some, like myself, getting relatively close to the prototype is satisfactory, simply because exact models of the rolling stock of our favorite railroad is just not available, and we are neither skilled enough nor wealthy enough to modify (kitbash) what's available, but are satisfied with a model that "obeys the five-foot rule" (looks okay viewed from 5 feet away...or 2 feet or whatever)! For some of us building the layout is what we enjoy. For some, operating as closely as possible to the prototype practices is what we enjoy.
The point is, there are no set rules. The model railroad police are not going to kick in the door to the train room, and check if you have something that doesn't look "prototypical"! So just do your own thing and enjoy yourself! :)
 
trailrider said:
Without beating a dead horse,
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Second Edition, Mcleod ....
It does not matter if you are a beginner or an old timer to this game of MRR'ing the only dumb question is the one not asked! Reading through the thousands of threads on this forum, you will find questions asked by both young and old to this fantastic hobby. Trailrider's reply above is "spot on"!
 
McLeod said:
Anyway, I went looking for a first locomotive that fit my criteria, and discovered the Athern Genesis GP-9 and the Rapido RS-18, both in Canadian National period green/yellow, and both beautiful. Except that the GP-9 has the large, single Cyclops headlamp (isn't that more GP-7), and the Rapido has a very different side louvre layout than what is apparent in photographs of the real thing. So, neither seems to be accurate to me, more like 'just abouts'.
Click to expand...


One thing that's important in your research is to make sure you're comparing the same thing. CN had multiple batches of both GP9s and RS-18s and details may vary between production runs, so you may find things that don't match if you're not comparing the same number series.

In particular, there was at least one batch of RS-18s without dynamic brakes so that makes a rather significant different in the air intakes and louvers so make sure you're comparing the right series. Rapido did some with DBs and some without DBs with completely different number series.
 
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