0-6-0 Mantua Classics Yard Goat - running choppy


cmcgloughlin

New Member
Greetings, this is my first of hopefully many posts here.

While not exactly new to the hobby, I am newly committed to "modeling" these trains which means I need to get back into adjusting, soldering, fixing, opening and looking at, etc. Too long I have purchased sets and relied on others (i.e. shell oput $$) to fix or resolve issues with my locos -- no more! I am doing the learning curve and hope to get over it someday.

That said, after having done so with a comple of old locos and getting them running again :) .... I am at a stopping point with my newly purchased Model Power / Mantua Classics 0-6-0 "Yard Goat" Switcher. This one:

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/csm/csm389001.htm

Need some help troubleshooting:

1) Slow speed issues: I purchased it because, besides liking the looks of it, it claimed to run very well at low speeds. We tested it at the hobby store and it worked fine on the straight test track, and the slow speed was very good. I bring it home and it seems to only have one speed - fast and choppy. I have tried finagling with the pickups and trucks and it runs no better. It seems like it has trouble on turns, it just stops and i have to give it a push. To be precise, i need to push down on the back end of the tender. I find that it actually runs better backwards, which I would be content to live with, but I need to go both directions to do switching operations.

2) Dead Frog Issues: this loco really just dies when it hits an insulated frog. Seems to be kind of unfortunate given this is supposed to be a switcher which should encounter all sorts of frogs. If I am running DCC, is the answer simply to purchase turnouts with powered frogs?. (PS I have Bachmann EZ track. I am happy with it in general and am willing to work with it so I become familiar with it, including filing etc.)

2) DCC chip -- Assuming I resolve the issues to #1 and #2, I would like to convert it to DCC so I can run it on my DCC track. It says it has a "9-pin". I am new to DCC, does anyone know a good decoder for this type of system? Sound would be super but not required.

Im not at all complaining about the engine, please understand. It looks really great and i am sure I can do something to make it run like I saw in the store, if I can just get a little knowledge. Thats where you all come in! I look forward to your thoughts.

Best,
Charlie
 
I never had good luck with model power or Mantua locos. Most of the ones I had were cheep and ran poor. They had 2 speeds, off and on. If the loco stalls over a switch its likly due to its short Wheel base. you can add power pickups to both the tender or loco wheels and this should solve the issue. Clean the tracks. small locos need clean track as they are not heavy and the contact is not as good. A digitrax Decoder has a 9 pin plug and should be plug and play. One thing that is a issue with DCC is that a poor running loco on DC will be worse when it runs on DCC. Thats my experince.

Trent
 
A few suggestions, Mike.

First off, probably 75% of Mantua locomotives all down through the years seemed to have had the tendency to run better in reverse than forward. Typically, this is as a result of the motor shaft and worm leaning a minute bit too far down and forward against the drive gear. This can usually be corrected by loosening the screw holding down the motor bracket to the frame and slipping a few tiny squares of typing paper under the bracket's front to lift it up ever so slightly.

Another item to check is to test just how freely the mechanism operates with the loco off the tracks. Touch power wires first directly to the motor contacts themselves and if the motor runs well in both directions, try the same through the wheels and see what happens. It's always possible that their is a power pick-up issue of some sort.

It is also a good practice to check all the lubrication points on any new model. The Goat by Model Power has been out for a while now, so it is possible you might have gotten an older one where the lubes have started to dry out (or were never applied!).

As to the problem of going over frogs, unless the frog is appropriately powered, this is likely to be a trouble spot for most any 0-4-0 traveling at low speed, especially if the turnout is a #6 and larger.

NYW&B
 
Thanks NYW&B and Trent for your thoughts and tips. I will take a look and let you know how it goes.

I like this little loco and would rather fix it up to run better than trade it in for another one. That said I would also appreciate suggestions on a good running tank engine or switcher ... or do they all have these issues due to small wheel base?
 
The tender only picks up power off one axle on each truck. Add wipers to all the axles or better yet to the backs of all the tender wheels to improve pick up.

Powered frogs will help.
 
Hi Charlie,
I'm not sure how the new Mantura loco's pick up power from the engine but they used to have brass spring loaded wipers between two of the drivers with a long arm that went up and made contact with one of the motor brushes. Possibly different now if any type of Can Motor is used? But if the spring loaded wipers are still used check to ensure they are clean, should be if it new, so they are making good positive contact with the tires. In the early Mantua Loco's the open frame motor attached to the frame in elongated slots and sat an angle to the drive gear so that it was possibly to move the motor too far back and have the worm gear on the motor mesh to deeply against the drive gear on main driver. A slight adjustment ffofrward solved that problem to ensure a freely rotating motor armature. Like NYW&B says, the motor may just need to be raised up a slight bit if Mantua's motor attaching process is different now possibly even a thin fiber washer under it might help if it's seated too deeply.

I bought a little 0-4-0 Dockside on ebay and had a heck of a time to get it to run decently. But after checking things over I found it just needed to be broke in and the best way to do that is to place the loco on NS rail and hold your fingers in front or it and
apply power so the drivers start spinning and just let it run in place a while like that and even wiggle it from side to side and angled cross wise between the rails till it runs steadly in any position, repeat the process with it running in reverse too. It may take several sessions of doing this but as long as there are no major binds, which should be corrected first of course, they should smooth out nicely and be able to run very slowly.

Also be sure the armature shaft has proper light oil lubrication on both sides of the motor but just a slight bit.

It's very common that Locomotives run better in reverse than forward for some reason, even a machinest friend who even built his own motors marveled at that.


Hope that helps?
 
Thanks so much David and Dave H. I'll definitely look into those things. I'll get back with you when I have tried it.

The pickup a small strip of metal which makes contact with an axle, one per truck like Dave H said. I took it to Nicholas Smith Trains over the weekend and they gave me a few pointers -- mainly that it was evident that my track needed cleaning. So after that dressing down I cleaned the track and the wheels of the loco and then it wouldnt run at all. I found after some inspection that in the process of cleaning the pickup axle i had slightly bent the wiper, so I took my needlenose and bent it into position. With cleaned wheels and re-contacted wiper it ran ... just OK. I think the next step is to try to raising that motor.

Thanks again for all the great tips.
 
Update:

I tried loosening that screw, putting a very slight wedge under the motor, and lubed it. Seems to be running much better tonight. We'll see how its doing tomorrow. Thanks everyone for the help, its def running better.
 
Charlie,
I too recently purchased a Mantua 0-6-0 Goat. I would also like to know which brand sound decoder would fit. As the 9 - pin plug is in the tender and there is not much room. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Gary
 
Sorry took me a day or two to respond. I did put in the 9 pin decoder... I dont have the part number readily available, but I will say it was not Digitrax and it was way too big (1 1/2" long!). Right now the tender is actually riding up 1/8" because I cant get it down any further. Bummed about this ... but it was hard enough to get a 9 pin decoder ordered, so when I got it, I just did my best with it.

Other than this major visual issue, the engine is running very, very well. DCC conversion has not been an issue purely in terms of performance. Loosening that screw and putting the wedge at the motor improved performance 200%.

When I talk to most hobby shops about 9 pin decoder they look at me like I am from Neptune. I show them the literature and the exploded diagram and then they look at this like it is from Neptune. Seems like a lot of mystery for somethign that is supposedly "DCC ready" but I guess thats kind of a loose term.

Its a nice little engine, Im happy with it, and the kids love it. But the tender's too dang small for what I am supposed to put in there.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
in addition

Loosening that screw, putting a very slight wedge under the motor, and lubing it, improved performance 200%. Has a nice crawl at slow speeds now. Excellent suggestions everyone.
 
You may be able to seat the tender shell over the decoder with a little creative cutting. Decoders are usually covered with thick shrink wrap. If this is the case, you can cut it off and gain a millimeter or two of clearance, but of course you'll need to put some tape or something on it so that it can't short to anything. If the wiring harness is the problem, you can of course shorten it by cutting and splicing.

Also see if there's anything inside the tender you can get rid of. Bracing in the shell, maybe a spot that's thicker than it needs to be.

Another option is to use a different tender. You can buy tenders on their own from a few manufacturers, if you're up to fitting the drawbar/wires to a new tender.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
By running "choppy', you think the problem may lie in the linkage on the driver gears?

Sometimes they will swivel out of place where the rivet has them seated to the wheel causing a slight bind.

I have a Mike that does that, have yet to find the cause but I think I have ruled everything else out. Worth checking anyway.
 
Mantua Classics Yard Goat

I had pickup problems with a Yard Goat and solved it by adding wipers on both of the rear tender trucks (all four axles) and adding another pickup on the engine contact all of the drivers. As mentioned in a previous post on small engines maximum contact is critical. The more points of pickup you have the better.

I also saw a question of adding DCC. I in fact not only added DCC but also sound. It is indeed possible to fit a sound decoder and speaker in the tender. I used a Soundtraxx LC 090 decoder (no longer available) and a small oval speaker. The Soundtraxx Tsunami 750 is actually smaller and would be an easier fit. It does take some machining on the tender. You have to cut a hole in the floor of the tender for the speaker.

One other thing I discovered on mine regarding operation was the plate holding the drivers in place. If you tightened it to normal torque, the wheels locked up. I had to file the areas where the axles contact the plate to allow clearance.
 
If you are still having trouble with the Goat stalling when going into a curve, especially a lefthand curve, the left drivers (normally insulated from the rails) might be shorting against the frame. A light application of clear nail polish to the back of the drivers or on the left side of the frame might be in order. Just don't make it so thick that it binds the drivers.

I have zero experience with the modern-day versions of Mantua locos, but shimming under the motor is the recommended remedy. The other thing that you may be able to do is to locate a gear box that can be installed instead of the direct gear engagement. I can't find the reference right now, but IIRC there is an outfit selling aftermarket gear boxes for many of the older Mantua locos. Then, you could install a can motor that drives the gear box shaft by means of a U-joint. Back when I was kitbashing Mantua/Tycos, I installed Canon coreless 20mm motors and some stamped brass gear mounts (made by the late Herold Mellor). Those locos run like a Swiss watch, even after 20+ years of storage. The only thing I had to do was clean the wheels. Most of these are based on the Mantua Pacific or the Mikes, but I think I've got at least one 0-6-0 in the "stable" somewhere. The Pacifcs (4-6-2's) became Hudson (4-6-4, Burlington #4001, Big Alice the Goon, sans streamline shroud), and in one case a high-stepping 2-6-2 Prairie, all C.B. & Q. A pair of Pacifics were kitbashed into a Northern Pacific 4-8-4. Mantua Mikados (2-8-2's) were spliced and diced into 2-10-2's and 2-10-4's, and one Burlington B-1A Mountain (4-8-2) and a North Western Berkshire (2-8-4). All run nicely on 18-inch radius curves! The trick is to have all but the end drivers blind, and shim the center drivers up about .010" and the flanged drivers down .010". With the individual articulated siderods, the difference in driver center heights is not a problem.

I use thin brass pickup wipers that touch all four tender axles. You used to be able to buy them, but I made a few from sheet brass. Just punch or drill a hole for the king pin and cut the brass to suit.

I've been thinking about adding sound decoders to some of these locos. Not sure, but I think those Canon motors might actually have insulated shells, so all I'd have to do to insulate the motors from the frames is remove the wire from the terminal grounded to the engine frame. When I have more time, I'll look into it.
 



Back
Top